This is fresh air. I’m David Biancouli, a professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey, and Terry Gross’s substitute. Today, we conclude our multi-day tribute to Broadway composer and lyricist Stephen Sondheim, who passed away last week at the age of 91. In this show, we will spend time with some people who have collaborated or performed with him in his musical.
A short personal note before we start-"The Company" premiered on Broadway in 1970 and was the first show I saw in New York. I visited as part of a Florida high school drama class, and the "company" surprised me so much that it started a lifelong love of musicals, especially Stephen Sondheim. After that, I went to New York to visit as much as possible. I saw the original "Stupid" and "Sweeney Todd" in the preview, and eventually took my own children to participate in every new Sondheim show and revival. Next year, I will start taking my grandchildren. In 2018, when I had the opportunity to talk to Sondheim on stage and discuss his work during a 90-minute interview at Rutgers University, it was one of the highlights of my entire career.
Stephen Colbert also interviewed Sondheim on TV in December 2010, when Colbert was still hosting the "Colbert Report." He stood out from that interview and received an unexpected reward-playing a role in the "corporate" revival of the New York Philharmonic Orchestra. Colbert explained the sequence of events to Terry Gross in the fresh air of 2011.
(Archived NPR broadcast voice)
TERRY GROSS: So let's talk about the "company". There is a song in "Company" called "Sorry-Grateful". This is a song about the character's ambivalence towards marriage. The role of Neil Patrick Harris is this bachelor. All his friends are married couples. They are actually very miserable, but they try to convince him that he needs to get married. So he has been visiting you and your wife in this regard, and you have been arguing and fighting. Then he said to you-when you sing this song about marriage conflicts, we will hear what he said to you, "I'm sorry, thank you." So this is Stephen Colbert. The first sentence you will hear is Neil Patrick Harris.
Neil Patrick Harris: (As Bobby) Do you regret getting married?
Stephen Colbert: (Harry, singing) You are always sorry. You are always grateful. You always want to know what it might be. Then she walked in. Still, you are sorry, still, you are very grateful. Still, you want to know, still, you doubt. she went out. Everything is different. Nothing has changed, it may just be rearranged a bit. You are sorry-grateful, sorry-happy. Why look for answers that did not happen? You will always be what you have always been, it has nothing to do with her-it's all related to her.
Martha Plympton: (playing Sarah) Harry, honey, go to bed.
Colbert: (As Harry) Come on, honey.
GROSS: You sang with emotion and vulnerability in that song, something you could never show in your own show "The Colbert Report." This is the other side of you.
Colbert: Yes. Right there. When I go to drama school, this is what I imagined I would do.
Gross: Really—especially musicals?
Colbert: Well, I think any drama or musical can be part of it. It's crazy to do something like this, because I went to Northwestern University and I went to the drama program there. And I work very hard. My purpose is to spend my whole life on drama. This is what I think of my life. This is not the case, and I like what I do, but when asked to do it and accept the challenge of it, I have to start the voice course again because I can radiate music in many ways, and I’m already on my show I did this, and-but singing Sondheim is a completely different beast.
Gross: How is it different?
Colbert: I’m not a music theorist, and I’m not sure if I can technically explain what is different, but the complexity of note changes-like where you are going next-is in Sondheim’s songs Not necessarily what you expect if you are primarily a la-di-da type of person.
Gross: How did you get this part? Who said, let Stephen Colbert, because it's not like you go to an audition, right?
Colbert: No. Well, you know, I perform 161 days a year, and sometimes I don’t know who the guest is. One day, when I looked up from my desk, I saw Stephen Sondheim written on the grid in the previous few days. I was with my booker, I said, Stephen Sondheim. She said, don't you want Stephen Sondheim? I have no idea. Many people here are not sure if you want Stephen Sondheim. I said, God, do I want Stephen Sondheim?
I can't-because people don't know me, I really like musicals. Although I haven't acted in a theater for 20 years, I still consider myself an actor and a dramatist. People don't think what I do is acting, but I still do it. Stephen Sondheim's classics are extremely beautiful to me, and I am very happy to have him in the show, so I did something I had never done to guests. I have done research.
Colbert: I actually worked hard for Stephen Sondheim, because I know this will not be an easy interview, because you have never met him for an interview. I assume he doesn't like it or whatever. One of my writers and I created a small parody of "Pie the Clown", and one more thing-I have to keep the role. Even if I like him, I have to work hard to maintain the role. It's difficult for me because I don't want to attack Stephen Sondheim, or really don't know anything about Stephen Sondheim, this is another strategy in the show. I may be hostile to my guests, or I may not know what they know and care about. It is difficult for me to do this with him, because I care about him and-or his work, that's it. so...
Gross: Did you know that before you continue, we have that clip here. so...
Gross: Yes, we have it here. So before you describe it further, why don't we really hear it? Then we can talk more about how you got this role in Stephen Sondheim’s "company". so...
Gross: This is an interview with Stephen Sondheim in the "Colbert Report." You wrote a new ending for his most famous song, let us hear how it works.
(The original soundtrack of the TV show, "The Colbert Report")
Colbert: Perhaps your biggest toe slammer, the one that people know best, is "Pie the Clown."
STEPHEN SONDHEIM: Very slow tapping.
Sondheim: From "Serenade".
Colbert: Yes. It comes from "Serenade".
Colbert: It—where is the clown?
Colbert: Because they said, where is the clown? And we will never find where the clown is, which really frustrates the audience.
Sondheim: She is a lost lady. She doesn't know where they are.
Colbert: Well, I found their location. Would you like-I have some lyrics, I think maybe you can finish your song.
Colbert: (singing) Where is the clown? I ordered 8 o'clock. Wait a moment. That was when they were on the phone, saying they were late. The traffic is terrible. The tunnel is a mess. All 12 of them were sitting in a car. They lost my address. You can't believe the clown. This is why they are called clowns.
Colbert: This is more satisfying, isn't it? Isn’t it satisfying to know where the clown is?
Sondheim: Well, listen. Our Broadway show is still three weeks away-a little longer-before it ends in January. I don't see any reason why Bernadette Peters can't sing that song.
Colbert: I'm completely ready to sell.
SONDHEIM: No, we need to laugh in the second act.
Colbert: I hope-is there more? Will you read another book after (unintelligible)?
Sondheim: Yes. The second one will be called "Look; I made a hat".
Colbert: Okay, let's talk about this.
Colbert: I rarely please, because I like to look better than mine...
Colbert: ...better than my guest. I just want to say, I am glad you are here. You and me, man, we are lunatics.
Colbert: Did you know?
Sondheim: Yes. I know that line.
Colbert: I bet you don't know.
Colbert: Stephen Sondheim, thank you very much.
Colbert: This book is "Completion Hat".
Gross: I like that because, in the end, you really tell him how much you like him. Like you said, you know, you usually don't do this on your show because you have to look superior to your guests (laughter).
Colbert: That's right—or at least it feels superior.
Gross: Exactly. That was the last Sondheim lyrics you quoted, right?
Colbert: Yes. This is-I quote it imperfectly. But that was from "in the park with George on Sunday". The boatman said to George, you and me, man, we are lunatics. do you know? (Singing) Bet you don't know.
Colbert: I like "in the park with George on Sunday." I saw it when I first went to drama school. I remember I sang "Finishing A Hat"—or at least read the lyrics of "Finishing A Hat" and other songs of "Sunday In The Park With George" to my mother, trying to explain why I wanted to be an artist.
Gross: Okay. Well, look; I think I interviewed Stephen Sondheim four times. He never asked me to participate in one of his musicals. What did you do (laugh)?
Colbert: (Laughter) Well, I mean, this is—I didn't do anything. I did nothing.
Gross: What did I do wrong (laughs)?
Colbert: I didn't realize that I was auditioning. I just—Peter Gwinn, one of my writers, wrote this song. I am very happy that he had a great time in the interview. I am glad that it ended with an imitation of this song, and he regarded it as the Valentine's Day it should be. I thought it was like that. Well, that's great. I had a good interview with Stephen Sondheim. You know, it's a small gap in the belt. Then we received a call saying that Lincoln Center would be a "company". Do I want to participate in it? My agent said wisely, no. He has no time. Later he told me that he had refused. I said, oh my goodness, James. do you know? That is the right call. This is the correct name. Absolutely. Wow. It's hard to say no. But yes, absolutely correct call. impossible. This is crazy. I can not do it.
A few days later, I received a handwritten letter from Stephen Sondheim stating that he went against his instincts and had a great time on my show. I would consider playing Harry in "The Company." NS? He ended the letter with one sentence, you have the perfect sound of a musical. I read it to my wife. She said, boy, you must do this. No one, let alone Stephen Sondheim, will ask you to be Sondheim. I said, you are right. I must do this.
BIANCULLI: Stephen Colbert talked to Terry Gross in 2011. After the break, we will hear the voices of other people, who appeared on Stephen Sondheim's revival show-"Hamilton" composer Lin Manuel Miranda. This is fresh air.
(Soundtrack of Tommy Cecil and Bill Mess "Finishing the Hat")
Bianculi: This is fresh air. Lin-Manuel Miranda won the Tony Award for his first Broadway musical "In The Heights", which is set in the Latino community of New York. His next musical "Hamilton" was a huge success, winning 11 Tony Awards and one Pulitzer Prize. In 2017, Terry Gross talked to Lin-Manuel Miranda about his theatrical experience before these popular shows and how Stephen Sondheim was How to fit into it.
(Archived NPR broadcast voice)
GROSS: You have to participate in the production of "Merryly We Roll Again", which is a great Sondheim musical. It always needs a revival, because the original Broadway performance was short. So this is a downtown-Encore production in downtown New York.
Gross: And, in fact, I want to play a little bit of your role in this regard. Therefore, you are playing a lyricist cooperating with a composer. But the composer is a bit like, sold out. And, you know, he is only doing business work. The lyricist now thinks of the composer, not just his friend and collaborator Franklin Shepard, he now thinks he is like Franklin Shepard because he cares very much...
Gross: ...like, trade and make money. So in this scene, it's like you are being interviewed on TV. You feel very painful about the entire collaboration with this composer. So this is my guest, Lin...
Gross: (Laughter) Yes. This is my guest, Lin-Manuel Miranda.
Unidentified actor #1: (as roles) Now, how do you two work together?
COLIN DONNELL: (As Frank) Oh, we work.
Miranda: (As Charlie) Oh, can I answer?
Unidentified actor #1: (as a role) please.
Miranda: (As Charlie) How do we cooperate? certainly. he goes...
Miranda: (playing as Charlie) I'm going...
Miranda: (As Charlie, singing) Soon, we started to hum— (humming). This is the so-called song writing-(humming). Then he went...
Miranda: (As Charlie, singing) I'll go...
Miranda: (As Charlie, singing) The phone rang (imitating the phone ring). He grumbled, grumbled, grumbled, grumbled. Yes, Jerome. I don't know, Jerome. Dududududu, that's his lawyer Jerome. Toot toot, toot toot, do it, Jerome. Click. I'm sorry, Charlie.
Miranda: (As Charlie, singing) So I go...
Miranda: (As Charlie, singing) He is gone...
Miranda: (As Charlie, singing) I'll go...
Miranda: (As Charlie, singing) Soon, we started to eavesdrop— (humming). (Imitating a buzzer) Sorry, Charlie. (Imitated buzzer) is the secretary (Imitated buzzer) on the walkie-talkie. Yes, Ms. Bzzz (ph)? It is a messenger. Thank you, Ms. Bzzz. Will you tell them to wait? Can you book a car? Will you call the bank? Will you wire the coast? You will-(imitate the phone ringing). I'm sorry, Charlie. Toot toot, toot toot, toot toot-to sell stocks. Mutter-purchase rights. Beep beep, beep beep, beep beep, beep beep, beep beep (imitate a buzzer). Let me pause (imitate a buzzer). Yes, Ms. Bzzz? It's an interview. Thank you, Ms. Bzzz. Will you let him wait? Can you wire the car? Will you order the coast? Will you send it to the bank? The phone flashes. And the stock is sold. And the rest of us, he keeps on. And he likes making movies. He is now a company, right? So I play with my wife and children at home. I'm waiting to listen to the movie's bid. I have a small sailboat. I am meditating, right? He flew to California. I discussed him with my contraction. This is the story of the way we work, Franklin Shepard and I.
(Laughter) I am surprised how much I like this.
Gross: Okay. That's my guest, Lin-Manuel Miranda (Laughter) The production of the great American musical series Encore in downtown New York, and the production of Stephen Sondheim's "Happy Let's Go Together".
You are very interesting in this regard. I really think singing hip-hop rhymes is a good preparation for this lyrics.
Gross: Yes, because of singing. And Sondheim-he is like the best lyricist. But what do you think you learned from the conversation with Sondheim—because I know he also gave you feedback about "Hamilton" before you actually put it on stage. So what did you learn from actual conversations with him, or just from, for example, getting to know his work closely?
Miranda: There are a few things. First of all, I am one of the many composers he took time to encourage. I am very grateful to be one of many people. I am by no means unique, because I have received encouragement from Steve Sondheim, which is true for many of my generation. This is incredible. He especially helped me make "Hamilton" the way, first of all, when I first told him, he said it was a good idea. I-when I first saw him do these translators, he said, what work do you still have? What's after "In the Heights"? I said, I think it's a musical about Alexander Hamilton. He raised his head and said, this is a brilliant idea.
Miranda: That moment kept me nourished for several months. You know, writing was very difficult at the time, when I didn't know how to end the first four lines of "My Shots". Sondheim raised his head and said, this is a brilliant idea, you know, this idea keeps me awake. But he always emphasized diversity, diversity, diversity, diversity, diversity. When you deal with a constant rhythm, no matter how good your lyrics are, if you don't change it, people's minds will start to waver. They will no longer listen to what you say. So always keep the ears fresh. And surprised the audience. And, you know, this is his slogan throughout the writing of "Hamilton." I will send him a batch of songs. He would say, I want to say it again-diversity, diversity, diversity. So I-you know, this was my mantra when I was writing that show.
GROSS: In my opinion, the Sondheim song that is closest to comedy rap is "Unmarried". It's done...
Miranda: (Rap) Thank you everyone. Is everyone here? Because if everyone is here, I want to thank everyone for attending the wedding.
Gross: Yes. Do more. Do more.
Miranda: (Rap) I appreciate your participation even more. I mean, you must have a lot of better things to do instead of saying a word to Paul. Remember Paul, do you know the man I want to marry? But I will not, because I will never destroy a good person like him. Thank you everyone for your gifts and flowers. Thank you everyone for the cards and showers. Don't tell Paul, but I will not get married today.
GROSS: Anyone who can sing this song has an incredible tongue (laughter).
Gross: This is too tricky. It is so fast. These words are so-like, dense, funny and rhyming (ph). Obviously, you remembered this song more or less. Have you considered this song in terms of the complex rhyming scheme and the ability of the vocal to not completely stumble?
Miranda: Well, I think-- (Laughter) Honestly, when people ask me, how do you think rap will work on Broadway, I think about that song more? I'm gone, there is nothing in my show faster than "Get married today" in "Company".
Miranda: So I don't know what you are talking about. This work has many precedents in terms of quoting, de-quoting, and "hip-hop", not in terms of rhythm on stage. But, you know, the amazing thing about "Get married today" is that it also makes the lyrics easy in the master class. Some consonants waste air. H-There is no H in it, because if you say ha, the air in your lungs is reduced by half. So it is very T and P. (Rap) Thank you everyone. Is everyone here? -Because if everyone is here, I want to thank everyone for attending the wedding.
It's not so much about existence as it is about breathing control-this is not a tongue twister. It is very consciously not a tongue twister. It's about being able to say it in one continuous breath and get away and choose words that don't require any extra air or any extra tongue or jaw work. So this is not actually an attempt to make it difficult. It's about making it easy.
Gross: Did you learn it intuitively? Or did Sondheim tell you that his intention is to stay away from H as much as possible and stay on things that are easy to say?
Miranda: I think I read this in one of his conversations. But I also know this intuitively, because I like hip-hop artists who rap fast. You know, they don't want to make something that makes it difficult for them to perform every night. They are working hard to make something that sounds impressive and bring happiness every night. I tried to come up with a very specific example from the early 90s. Queen Latifah-(Rap) Snatch your body. You have a broken bone-it looks more like a broken bone. Grab the rapper. Latifah will come back and break you down.
That was Queen Latifah in 1992. And it's fast. With Queen Latifah's "UNITY" she said, (rap) many people outside are pulling the trigger, preparing to pull the trigger. Miss, why did you jump in front of the bullet?
There is no H. So you intuitively understand that it's like a writer trying to make something that easily flows off the tongue.
BIANCULLI: Lin-Manuel Miranda talked with Terry Gross in 2017. Coming soon, Sondheim’s co-author James Lapin in "Into the Woods", "Sunday in the Park with George" and "Passion" and the director of the long-term musical Paul Gemini Nisundheim .
This is David Biancouli. This is fresh air.
(Song soundtrack, "Get married today")
BETH HOWLAND: (As Amy, singing) Everyone listen. Look; I don't know what you are waiting for. Wedding-what is a wedding? This is a prehistoric ritual where everyone promises to be loyal forever. This is probably the scariest word I have ever heard, and then honeymoon, where he suddenly realized that he was carrying nuts on his back and wanted to kill me. He should be like this Do. Thank you very much, but I will not get married. Go for lunch, because I'm not married yet. You are already great, but I will not get married. Don't just stand there, I won't get married. Don't tell Paul, but I will not get married today. go. Can't you go? Why is no one listening? goodbye. Go and cry for the other person to wake up. If you want to play fast, you can choose...
Bianculi: This is fresh air. I’m David Biancouli, on behalf of Terry Gross, once again paying tribute to Stephen Sondheim, who passed away last week at the age of 91. Now we hear the news of James Lappin, one of Sondheim’s most important collaborators, who wrote books for the musical "Sunday in the Park with George", "Into the Woods" and "Passion." He also directed original Broadway productions. "Sunday in the Park with George" won the Pulitzer Prize for Drama. Lapine won the Tony Award for his book "Into The Woods". The musical book is the part that is said, not the part that is sung. But some of Sondheim’s songs were inspired by or borrowed lines written by Laping for the performance. When Terry talked to him earlier this year, Lappin published a book called "Put It Together: How Stephen Sondheim and I Created Sunday in the Park with George."
(Archived NPR broadcast voice)
Gross: The interesting thing is that the opening song is from the perspective of the character Bernadette Peters. The model is hot in the sun, and it feels uncomfortable to model for the talented painter George Seurat (laughs) . But at the same time, she just kind of, like, suffer and endure it.
JAMES LAPINE: Well, I think, first of all, he is—he may be a genius, she may know this at the time, but Seurat has never succeeded. He never actually sold a painting in his life. He died very young. I think looking back at it-a lot of writing is unconscious-I think it is a wise move to let us understand the artist George from another angle, especially, you know, his mistress, with him, you know, so Participate intimately. It immediately sets up the dilemma of life and art, and what you give up when you commit to any aspect of art or work, and how it affects your private life. That song, you know, I totally pay tribute to Steve, it did a lot of drama and helped us out of the door of storytelling.
GROSS: Then why don't we listen to the opening song "Sunday In The Park" of "Sunday In The Park"?
(Song soundtrack, "Sunday in the Park")
Bernadette Peters: (As Dot) George, why do you always sit in the shade and I have to stand in the sun? Hello, George. There are people in this dress. A drop of sweat, the back of the head. He always does this. Now the foot is dead. (Singing) In the park with George on Sunday. There is another-the collar is damp and starts to squeeze. The noise is slipping. I will not give in an inch. Who is in the zoo, George? Who is in the zoo? Who is the monkey with, George-who is the monkey with?
Mandy Patinkin: (as George) Don't move.
Peters: (As Dot, singing) The artist is eccentric, stubborn, and cold. It's you, George. You are weird, fixed, and cold. I like the kind of men—fixed and cold. Oh my God, it's so hot outside. Well, there is something worse than staring at the water on Sunday. There is something worse than staring at the water, because you are posing for a picture of your lover painted on an island in the river on a Sunday in midsummer.
GROSS: That was the opening song of "Sunday In The Park With George", the music and lyrics of Stephen Sondheim, and the book written for this show by my guest James Lapine, who is also the director of this show. Now he has a new book called "Put It Together: How Stephen Sondheim and I Created "Sunday in the Park with George." For her character, a drop of sweat. Sondheim said, no , No, no, I can’t use dribble. He changed it to trickle. So tell me what you think. When he said, what’s your idea, not dribble, trickle ?
Laping: You know, I only did one musical before that. In fact, in general, I am still very new to theater, and I only really came into contact with it when I was in my 20s. And I am fascinated to work with him every time to understand how he does what he does and why he does what he does. I have no judgment on anything. I just thought, oh well, it's fun. Then he-then I will learn, you know, the genius behind setting words in music and rhyme and all the complexity of creating songs. So I am very happy to see Steve every week and do my best to help him create music.
Finally, when he wrote the opening song, he would read me the couplet he was writing, or, you know, he thought he might add the lyrics of that song. It's a bit like being questioned by a lawyer, you know, which one of them do you like best? You know, well, you like this best. Why do you like this best? She can say this, can she say that? In retrospect, it was really a process in which he really tried to get into my mind and figure out who these characters were so that he could get to know them intimately before writing anything for them.
Gross: Can you think of the enlightenment from what Sondheim said. Without him, you might not have realized or thought of it?
Leveling: I think what I learned the most from him is the combination of music and spoken language. One of the things he said to me that might be important is to let me deal with the subject. I can add something to a song that no one will feel at a loss because you are in the scene, it will scream because of the theme. If you want to say something, you know, beauty or something, that would be a cliché. It’s great—you know, that’s why no one knows who the writer is, because if it’s a good musical, you know the music. That's why you go to see it. On the surface, your job as a writer is to tell a story and connect it to a song. But people didn't realize that Steve's way of working was-why he didn't write a song before the completion of Act One, because he merged the two together. He robbed his writer. This is a repeated dialogue about what the role is, what the theme of the show is, and how to express it. In most cases, many of them are expressed in music.
Gross: Okay. So this is really interesting. You can think of a song by Sondheim that you and he agreed with should be an emotion or a theme point expressed in the show, but if it is actually spoken instead of sung, then it sounds Will it be too old-fashioned, sentimental, or a sensation on the nose?
Leveling: I would say "Finishing the hat" is a perfect example. A song appears in the perfect position in the performance, allowing the audience to see this indifferent, distant character, and let us understand what he is going to do and what he has gone through. What is his process, who he is, and the pain he feels. But I think Steve’s genius lies in what I think I would call the Discovery Musical. You know, he has the first act, but he often knows where a song is needed and what the song needs to say.
GROSS: Part of the content of this song is how difficult it is to create a work of art. But when you created it, there was something there that never appeared before. You created something that didn't exist before. If you mentioned this in your speech, it might sound a bit too much.
Leveling: ...Koni City. Well, there is another aspect to this song, which is that he checks what he gave up to do something, what the choice is, what you do with your time and your passion, and how you must stay away from other temptations to keep you Attention is based entirely on this vision that you have to achieve.
Gross: Okay. Okay, let's listen. So this comes from "in the park with George on Sunday."
(Song soundtrack, "Complete the Hat")
Patinkin: (as George, singing) Finishing the hat-how do you finish the hat, how do you finish the hat while looking at the rest of the world from the window. Depict the sky, how you feel about planning the sky—how you feel when the sounds from the window come until they move away and disappear, until there is nothing but the sky—and how you are always too late from the grass or the stick The dog is still a lamp, the kind of woman who is willing to wait, not the kind of woman you are looking for waiting to return you to the night, dizzy from a height. From hats, learn hats, enter the world of hats...
Bianculi: Come back after a break. This is fresh air.
Bianculi: This is fresh air. Let's go back to Terry's interview with James Lapine earlier this year, who collaborated with Stephen Sondheim on the musicals "Into The Woods", "Sunday In The Park With George" and "Passion". As part of a tribute to Sondheim, who passed away last week at the age of 91, we revisited this interview.
Gross: Now I want to ask you a question about "passion". In short, this is about a soldier having a passionate extramarital affair with a beautiful woman. She was sent to a remote outpost and the commander’s cousin was very sick—I mean, she was very sick. , Other soldiers who were considered very ugly women were there. She basically lives in books. She studies to live. In the end, the protagonist soldier also got sick, and they actually developed a loving relationship. She fell in love with him very early, and in the early stages of the musical, he did his best to reject her. So what is-can you choose a song that you think is really related to it, some lines or based on a monologue you wrote?
Leveling: Well, there is one song that is the last one, and another beautiful short song written by Steve, called "Love You". We had a terrible time in the preview. The audience just didn't believe the fact that this beautiful man would fall in love with this sick and unpleasant woman, really. I realized in the preview that we had to tell the audience-literally-what made him fall in love with her. She explained for the first time what love was to her, and she realized that love did not fall at his feet, but just there. She turned her head to talk about love. And a simple little song, when it enters the program, really helps us bring the audience into this far-fetched story.
GROSS: Then let's listen to "Loving You" in the musical "Passion". This is Donna Murphy.
(Song soundtrack, "Love You")
Donna Murphy: (As Foska, singing) Loving you is not an option. This is me. Loving you is not a choice, and there are not many reasons to be happy, but it gave me goals, gave me a voice and said to the world that this is the reason why I live. You are the reason I live. Loving you is the reason why I do what I do. Love you is not in my control. But loving you, I have a goal for the rest of my life. I will live, I will die for you.
GROSS: That was "Love You" in the musical "Passion" sung by Donna Murphy. The music and lyrics were composed by Stephen Sondheim. The book for this show was written by my guest James Lappin.
Leveling: You know, I think that show — I would say this for Steve too — somehow it impressed us on such a deep level that we can't even express why. It just moved us. It brings us a very interesting challenge to keep the audience's attention on this subject because it poses a threat to people. I remember sitting in the auditorium and there were many married couples around me. Of course, when the show started, these two naked beauties were having sex. Especially the people in the audience are like, yes, this is the show for me, you know?
Leveling: Then the show started, and after about 30 minutes, they wriggled in their seats. And, you know, after 40 minutes, they tried to poke their wives and kick the fuck out. But it makes many of us question what love is, and question, you know, are we only interested in the surface of people, not what their hearts and brains actually are? I can feel married couples asking themselves, are we still in love? Is this passion? Is this love? Anyway-it poses a lot of questions to people, this show.
Gross: Are you and Sondheim still good friends?
Leveling: Oh, my goodness, yes. I think he is one of my absolute closest friends.
Gross: I am very happy to hear the news.
Leveling: I'm very lucky. I mean, when you experience everything we have experienced in these three shows, you know that you are on the hip for the rest of your life.
BIANCULLI: Earlier this year, James Lapine had a conversation with Terry Gross. His recent book on working with Sondheim is titled "Put it Together: How Stephen Sondheim and I Created'Sunday in the Park' with George." Next, we visited his permanent music Director Paul Geminiani came to end our multi-day salute in Sondheim. This is fresh air.
(Soundtrack of "Happiness (Trio)" by the Trotter Trio)
Bianculi: This is fresh air. Paul Deminiani started working with Stephen Sondheim in 1973 as his music director, producing such as "Serenade", "Barber Todd", "Sunday in the Park with George" And "Passion" and other musicals. In 2001, Terry Gross talked to Paul Gemignani, when he received the Tony Award for Lifetime Achievement. Gemignani said that he particularly liked being the music director in Sondheim’s "Sweeney Todd", which premiered on Broadway in 1979. This is the opening ceremony.
(Song soundtrack, "Prelude: Song of Sweeney Todd")
Unidentified actor #2: (as a role, singing) Participate in the story of Sweeney Todd. His skin was pale and his eyes looked strange. He shaved the gentlemen who had never heard of it again. He walked a path that few people walked, the demon barber Sweeney Todd on Fleet Street.
(Archived NPR broadcast voice)
GROSS: In "Sweeney Todd", I think the first sound we heard was a siren, really...
Gross: ...like, discordant, piercing, shocking siren, which of course set the tone for a musical about very shocking ideas...
Gross: ...and feelings and actions...
Gross: ...including murder and revenge. Hmm, do you really have a siren...
GEMIGNANI: What it said-in the opening remarks at the top, it said, whistle. The factory whistle is what it says. So we sat down to discuss what a factory whistle is. What I think of are those old British factory movies, Dirk Bogard's movies, and he is in a blue-collar district somewhere in the UK. His father works in a mine or factory. On the top of that factory is this whistle. It is actually made of steam, right? -Quite harsh.
We finally found this real factory whistle. We connected it to a carbon dioxide tank. This is how we operate it. In fact, I operated it from a switch in the pit. I will play it. I think we almost fainted from the sound. But it did what it was supposed to do. It was so strong that they had to continue to move it farther. So, you know, the audience will jump from their seats.
Gross: Can you think that in the musicals you direct every night, you would say to yourself, what does this mean to me? This is the musical sense I live for, the Broadway feel?
GEMIGNANI: I have to say "Sunday in the park". I have to say when will Mandy and Bernadette sing "We Do Not Belong Together". When you asked me this question, that moment suddenly appeared in my mind. I'm sure there are a thousand more. But, you know, work — the 12 years I worked with Steve — and, hell, I don't have to work anymore after that. I mean, in these 12 years, all my excitement and all expectations as an artist have been met. I-am I tired of work now? Do not. I won't — will I continue to work until I can no longer work? Absolutely.
I just want to say (laughter) I feel a little greedy at this point because I have had such great experiences and good times in the past, and because these two guys have the opportunity to do a lot of things in art. You know, everything else is gravy, but one place in "Sunday in the Park" impressed me.
GROSS: Let's listen to the duet between Mandy Patinkin and Bernadette Peters in "Sunday In The Park With George".
(Song soundtrack, "We Are Not Together")
Peters: (as a point) Yes, George. Run towards your work. Hiding behind your painting. I'm here to tell you that I'm leaving because I think you might want to know-I'm so stupid because you don't care about anything.
Patinkin: (As George) I care about many things.
Peters: (as a point) things, not people.
Patinkin: (as George) people too. I can't divide my feelings as cleverly as you. I am not hiding behind my canvas. I live in it.
Peters: (as a point) you care about yourself.
Patinkin: (as George) I like this painting very much. You will be in this picture.
Peters: (As Dot, singing) I am something you can use.
Patinkin: (as George, singing) I thought you got it.
Peters: (As Dot, singing) This is because I understand that I am leaving, I am leaving.
Patinkin: (As George, singing) Then I have nothing to say, am I?
Peters: (As Dot, singing) Yes, George, there is. You can tell me not to go. Tell me. Tell me not to go. Tell me you are injured. Tell me you are relieved. Tell me you are boring. Nothing, but don't think I know. Tell me how you feel.
Patinkin: (as George, singing) How do I feel? You know how I feel. Why do you insist on what you have to hear when you know what I cannot give you, not what you need? have nothing to say. I can't be what you want.
Peters: (As Dot, singing) What do you want, George?
Patinkin: (as George, singing) I need you, you left.
Peters: (As Dot, singing) I have no room.
Patinkin: (As George, singing) You won't accept who I am. I am what I do, you know, you always know, I think you are a part of it.
Peters: (As Dot, singing) No. You are complete, George. You are your own. We do not belong together. You are complete, George. you alone. I am not finished. With or without you, I am weakened. We do not belong together. We should belong together. What makes it so right together, but it is completely wrong. No one is you, George. we agree.
GROSS: That's "We Do Not Belong Together" in "Sunday In The Park With George". Conducting that is one of the favorite Broadway experiences of music director Paul Gemignani. I asked him to think about another one.
GEMIGNANI: The first thing Sweeney sang to the razor in "Sweeney Todd", that moment stayed in my mind.
Gross: This is the moment when the barber Sweeney Todd, who was in prison, was released. He is seeking revenge against the judge who locked him up and shouldn't. The judge is now planning to marry Sweeney's daughter. This is an ugly story. But in the end, Sweeney and his razors reunited. Not only did he use them as a barber, but he also wanted to use them for revenge. He sang this beautiful song, telling how he reunited with his friends. But what he really wanted was revenge.
Gross: What wonderful place is there for you at this moment, command it?
GEMIGNANI: Well, the beauty of music and the irony of ideas, it gives you something to perform. No, you know, it's not 32 bars four or four times. This is a beautiful melody, you know, an intense, dramatic moment that takes the story from one place to another. This is my theater, musical or other.
Bianculi: In 2001, Paul Deminiani talked with Terry Gross.
(Song soundtrack, "My Friends")
LEN CARIOU: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) These are my friends. See how they shine. See this glow. What a smile he was in the light. My friend, my loyal friend, speak to me, friend. whisper. I will listen. I know. I know. You have been locked out of sight like me all these years, my friend. Well, I went home and found that you were waiting-go home. And we are together. We will create miracles. Won't we? Are you there, my friend.
ANGELA LANSBURY: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) I am also your friend, Mr. Todd.
Cario: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) Come on. Let me hug you.
Lansbury: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) If you know, Mr. Todd.
Cario: (As Sweeney Todd, singing) Now, sigh.
Lansbury: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) Oh, Mr. Todd.
Cario: (Like Sweeney Todd, singing) You become warm in my hands.
Lansbury: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) You are very warm in my hands.
Cario: (Singing like Sweeney Todd) My friend.
Lansbury: (As Mrs. Lovett, singing) You are home.
Cario: (Like Sweeney Todd) My smart friend.
Lansbury: (As Mrs. Lovett) I always like you, I like it.
Cario: (Like Sweeney Todd) Let's rest now, my friend.
Biancouli: We pay tribute to Broadway composer and songwriter Stephen Sondheim, who died last week at the age of 91. He left the musical theatre to a more affluent place and gave us the last gift. The new movie version of "West Side Story" written by him will be shown in theaters next week.
On Monday's show, Kieran Culkin, one of the stars of the HBO series "Inheritance". This is a comedy embedded in a drama about business, politics, and personal wealth and power. Culkin plays one of three adult siblings who vie to take over the family-run business group after the retirement or death of their elderly father, including a conservative cable news network. I hope you can join us. The executive producer of FRESH AIR is Danny Miller. Our senior producer is Roberta Shorrock. For Terry Gross, I’m David Biancouli. Transcript provided by NPR, copyright of NPR.